Poll on the Evolution of Dean/Cas fans

[mf_luder_xf]

So, in becoming a full-fledged Dean/Castiel fan, I've noticed a few things. These are generalizations, I admit. There is an exception to every rule. I can say this because I am one. But, I have not seen a single person advocating both pairings the way I might. Hence, the poll.

Thing 1: Wincest fans do not like Dean/Cas. Hell, half the time, they don't even seem to like Castiel.

Thing 2: Dean/Cas fans do not like Wincest.

Me, I like both. I admit, I'm on a Dean/Cas kick, but I haven't wholly changed my allegiance (though it helps that all the eye fucking and sex/gay jokes transitioned from Sam to Castiel. What? I'm easy like that, apparently. Maybe it'll be Dean/Chuck next season...O___o).

But, I'm wondering where all the Dean/Cas lovers came from. If they all hate Wincest so much, what were they like BEFORE Castiel came along? I'm thinking the most logical explanation for those who hate Wincest but only now have an OTP is that they only joined fandom when Castiel came along. Am I right? Or has Dean/Cas wooed you away from another pairing?

[Poll #1507456]

Yes, I realize I gave you only one option. The point is to find those who are fervent Dean/Cas fans and pinpoint what they spent most of their time on. Me, I've read everything on that list (well, actually, I don't think I've ever read a Sam/John fic) and THEN some. But my main reading was Wincest. So think of what you mostly read (or didn't).

Please spread this around. I'd like more than 2 or 3 responses.

Comments

[kaylbunny.livejournal.com]

I didn't just not read fic before Castiel came along - it wasn't till season 4 that I actually wanted to join the fandom. Wincest doesn't interest me (not because of the incest, I just can't stand it) and I wasn't interested in any other pairings, so I didn't really have any incentive to dive into the wank infested waters of Supernatural fandom. It's not like i'm a hardcore Dean/Castiel shipper though, I will read Castiel with pretty much anyone. I know i'm not the only person who joined the fandom because of Castiel.

[bold-seer.livejournal.com]

I know i'm not the only person who joined the fandom because of Castiel.

You most certainly are not (as my reply proves). :)

[mf_luder_xf]

I'm curious. You say it doesn't squick you, sorta like how you say you find the idea of J2 hot, but can't do RPS without Misha. If it doesn't squick you, why don't you like it? If they weren't brothers, why wouldn't you like the pairing still? (Not judging, just curious!! I wish I could analyze this stuff for school, you know. I wonder why I didn't go into psych sometimes...)

Hmm, just like the person beneath you, you reference the wank. I guess I became involved right away so missed that whole stay-away-from-wank bit? I always knew it was there, but ignored it and didn't let it taint my opinion of the show/fans in general. Maybe I'm really laid back or it's the people I tend to commune with on a (back then) daily basis. Hmm.

That makes sense. You're actually the first person I've seen to express not just a love for Castiel, but a Castiel shipper in general. I've seen that those who love Castiel are almost exclusively Dean/Cas people. I know when he came on the show, I was just in awe of him. I was going back through my SPN entries and noticed I didn't rec a Dean/Cas until December last year. And quite frankly, I didn't even remember that. I was thinking it wasn't until this fall that I got into it. And now I've read Cas/Ruby, Cas/Lucifer, Cas/a couple other characters. I'll admit, Dean/Cas is my OTP. But I'm also equal opportunity. Give me a goof fic with an intriguing pairing; I'll read it.

[kaylbunny.livejournal.com]

I made a post about why I don't like wincest before. It's not the incest that bothers me, it's that I relate to Dean's situation of practically raising Sam himself, because I've done the same with my niece. So no, I just can't go there. If they weren't brothers then their dynamic and history would be completely different, so I can't say whether i'd ship them then (but again, it's really not them being brothers that bothers me.) Also, beyond Jensen and Jared being hot and if RPS not involving Misha didn't squick me I still don't think i'd ship them, purely because Jared always comes off as very heterosexual to me.

Most of my flist tends to stay away from the wank too, but even back in the day when I was in Harry Potter fandom I heard about it, which, when you consider that HP is wanktastic too, is saying something. Spn fandom is so much more bitchy than HP ever was, at least in my opinion.

There's a few people on my flist who have the same views on Castiel as me. They also watched the first three seasons but just didn't feel motivated to do anyhting till our favourite angel came along. I don't think you can be a Mishalandian without shipping Castiel/Everyone, but I really enjoy all pairing. Hell I even love Castiel/Ruby and Castiel/Anna, and het squicks me out XD But yeah, Dean/Cas is my favourite, they just seem so right for each other.

[mf_luder_xf]

I see, that makes more sense. It's the almost parent-like relationship that bothers you more than anything. And I can see how having personal similarities to that situation would make it more uncomfortable (though I know many fans with siblings who still ship incest).

That's interesting. You don't ship Jared because you find him very hetero. See, I LOVE taking people who seem very het and completely fucking with their sexuality. I'd do it with female characters too, except I seem to be drawn to shows with only one strong/likeable female character or mainly with guys (that's not entirely true. I, unlike some, do feel both Teyla and Weir were strong characters on SGA. I just found myself connecting with Rodney and Sheppard more because I am a far less smart and caustic version of McKay and Shep portrays that tragic hero bit I love).

Haha! That IS saying something!! I always got the age issue wank from HP (as in that was what I noticed about it). But while I love the books and movies, I never felt the desire to join the fandom.

You know, I've never actually read any Castiel/Anna. Hmmm.

You have a lot of squicks!! How do you survive in fandom? LOL I still love you!

PS: thanks for the plug!

[kaylbunny.livejournal.com]

I do ship incest though. For example: Ed/Al from Fullmetal Alchemist, who are brothers. Kaoru/Hikaru from Ouran High School Host Club, who are twin brothers. Sharpay/Ryan from High School Musical, who are twin sister and brother. Itachi/Sasuke from Naruto, who are brothers. There's probably a few more too.

See, if i'm going to mess with people's sexuality and the like then I go the gender-bender route. I have a HUGE weakness for good mpreg and genderswap. Most of the SGA fic i've read so far has been genderbender. John as a girl FUCK YEAH.

The only squicks I actually have are parent/child, severely underage, and the kinkier sex stuff like watersports. Considering I read so much Castiel/OFC these days I can't really say het squicks me anymore. I'll read pretty much anything. I've been in fandom over 8 years, I doubt there's a kink I haven't read/tried yet XD

A could rec you some Castiel/Anna if you want. There's one fic in particular I adore.

[bold-seer.livejournal.com]

Hi there, hope you don’t mind a random passer-by giving their opinions. :)

Dean/Castiel is the truest OTP ever, and yes, you’re quite right. When Castiel stayed, I (joined the SPN fandom and) stayed. Before that I had actually sworn to myself that I would never come anywhere near this fandom because of (a) the drama that, at least partly, stems from RPF – which I have some issues with, but certainly have no right condemn – and (b) the Wincest.

I don’t have (that many) issues with Sam/Dean as a pairing – other than that it squicks me. I know people who read that; it’s none of my business. What I have issues with, is that it’s – supposedly – the default pairing of this fandom. We are not talking about a royal family in ancient Egypt, people; why do you insist on incest being the natural option?

[mf_luder_xf]

I accept and love all passer-bys. ♥

I love that SPN is just known for the wank (well and Wincest, obviously). See, I manage to be really deep into the fandom (I joined when an online XF fan convinced me by tell me to watch Skin. That to this day is still my favorite ep), and I write (well, ok, I haven't for a long time, but that's more circumstances than anything) Wincest and hell, I even wrote some J2. And yet, I am able to ignore the wank. I know it goes on, but half the time, I don't even know the whole of it because I just don't bother with it.

I can tell you how it came to be the default pairing.

1). Two attractive male costars who have--you must admit--really good chemistry.
2). Sure, Sam had a gf but she died in the first ep.
3). Dean is so dedicated to family and it's really rare to see that in RL anymore, one must assume something else is going on.
4). It's enticing, something unusual. We're in fandom; fandom people are a little more out there/daring/kinky than your average doesn't-mind-if-they-miss-a-week-of-House kind of people. The fact that it is illegal or dangerous or "wrong" is what makes it exciting.
5). The chemistry. If the two weren't brothers...every straight man would be calling them gay.
6). The way the grew up, living in each other's pockets. it's not normal; thus, neither are they.
7). Their one constant? Each other. Dean goes from girl to girl, Sam's a monk basically (although that's more a construct than anything by fandom. He was obviously grieving Jess and he's not a manwhore like Dean. Doesn't make him a monk, but that was the conclusion).

Put that together and well, you get the makings of Wincest. Sure, it doesn't compute for everyone. I know I was horrified at first. But just a few years before that, I'd been horrified by slash and about six months before THAT, I'd been horrified at reading erotica period (my mother bought the romance novels with a kiss in them, so I was a bit sheltered when it came to being a consumer of sex). I know I ended up liking it for almost all those reasons. I'm also a big tragic hero/complications kind of girl. I love my characters to be emotionally disturbed, a bit fucked up, angsty like all emo bands put together, and morally grey. Thus for me, the issues of incest (should we, shouldn't we), how they might get there, etc, is really what intrigued me. For those who joined the fandom later, it's hard to see why Wincest became the default. But that's basically a simple list of how it did.

[let-fate-decide.livejournal.com]

When the show literally began, I was really into it. Really into it. And I read so much Gen, SO MUCH! But then the Wincest craze started and I just... could not get into that. Incest is definitely a no-no for me, haha. I totally fell out of love with the show because of all the Wincest, because - no joke - it felt like a lot of Supernatural people in fandom hated you if you weren't into Wincest. (Also because season two was horrible, lol.)

SO BASICALLY, I got back into the show MAINLY for Castiel, because there would finally be a character I could get into without automatically slashing him... with his brother :D and then of course I ended up slashing him with Dean. Naturally.

BASICALLY, I was totally a Gen person. Some of my favorite stuff is still the season one long stuff that I read back then. ♥

(Note: I don't hate Wincest. I just don't agree with it. I'm not really into hating pairings that other people like. It's mostly that I don't understand WHY you would do such things, heh.)

AND: Castiel is pretty.

[mf_luder_xf]

Aww, you hated season 2? I liked most of it.

You're right. Being in the Wincest faction so deep, there did seem to be some animosity. I never felt that (and still don't). My only issue is when people start lashing out at pairings. It's kind of annoying to be called morally wrong or disgusting because of it. I always wanted to retort to the various slashers who did that, that, well, there were a lot of het people who no doubt thought THEY were morally wrong. I guess that's just one of those wank things in SPN fandom. It does seem you're either a Wincester or you're not. I tend to blur those lines. Sure, Wincest was my favorite, but I never said anyone shouldn't read something else or hold their own opinion. As stated above, I tried just about every pairing out there for the fandom. I came away from all that knowing I didn't like the daddycest. I just...there's just something about growing up with a parent and knowing they are and then doing that...*shudders* Not my thing. But I by no means judge anyone who does. It's what they like. I'll just pass on reading it. That's my biggest problem. I think everyone should get along. I get somewhat annoyed when I'm reading comments on a story that include "I hate wincest!" or "wincest totally squicks me but I love this pairing" and some far more offensive. Because really? Why must you clarify that when you're complimenting a person's fic? And I get that way when other people harsh on other pairings like Sam/Ruby or a fic with Bela or Dean/Jo. WHY CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG? lol I'm just too easy to please, I guess. If the fic's good, it's good. The end. I like breaking the mold a bit.

As for understanding, if you look a comment up or two, I give the basic outline for why Wincest intrigued any of us. Obviously, you probably still won't agree, which is ok. But it's a little less wankish, a little more clear than you might find somewhere else.

I think you're a gen person in (heh) general, though, aren't you? I remember when I first got into SGA you gave me gen recs because I insisted I had no pairing (yeah, that last long, NOT, lol).

Castiel is INDEED pretty! *pets*

[let-fate-decide.livejournal.com]

Haha, I admit I've only seen probably the first... 11? episodes of season two, and no episodes from season three. Ahahah. Maybe I'll watch those someday, just not too motivated right now. I mainly came back for the Castiel goodness, heh!

I KNOW! Why can't we all just get along! UGH! I read your comment above and yeah, it makes sense to me. I can see the chemistry and all the signs, but I just can't get past the incest part of it. Haha. I tried, trust me! I wanted to fit in :( but yeah, definitely didn't happen.

Hah! I definitely LOVE some me some gen. It's what I read at first in SGA (and most of the fandoms that I get into; it's a good transition I feel) but then I naturally dove headfirst into John/Rodney... uhhh, anyhow. But you're right, some of my favorite fics of all time have been gen :)

*is petted*... *glee*

[mf_luder_xf]

Oh, wow. You just bypassed those. That makes more sense, then. Although, I've never been one to do that myself. I will even rewatch my least favorite episodes. Ok, with one exception. I never rewatched Badlaa (X-Files). That ep was just too ridiculous and too gross to ever see again.lol So, if you hadn't been watching, what made you start again? I mean, you say Castiel, but was it your flist writing about him, seeing the previews, you just happened to tune into 4x1...?

Meh, no need to fit in! As I said above, I get annoyed at being called disgusting because I like Wincest (or Petrellicest, although funny thing is, that's even more accepted as the de facto pairing than Wincest, even). But I don't actually care. Maybe if I was the only person in all of fandom who seemed to like it, but I'm not, so I feel fairly secure. And not liking it, trust me, I understand those arguments! All I have to say is, I wouldn't condone it in RL (though I still have no right to judge, if you see the difference). But it's fiction and it makes a good story. *shrugs*

Oh, SGA. How I miss thee...if I didn't have a list of like 20 some fics of Dean'Cas bookmarked and if I wasn't trying to write SPN again, I'd be having my season 5 marathon. But I know if I go back right now, it'll be another 2 years before I do SPN stuff again.lol

[let-fate-decide.livejournal.com]

Hah, yup. I just skipped over that season. I may eventually go back and watch them though, just haven't gotten around to it.

I mainly got back into the show because seriously, everyone on my flist had moved on from SGA after it had ended, and into Supernatural. But of course, a lot of those people had also been in SPN fandom before then, but... also SGA, so I still had something in common :P but anyways, yeah, just got back into it cuz everyone had been telling me how ~awesome this Cas guy was. AND I just needed something new to get into. Supernatural is slowly filling part of the void SGA left ♥

If it didn't hurt so much, I'd try to rewatch SGA ♥ but alas. BUT I think I've finally reached the point where I can start to rewatch Battlestar :) YAY!

[hils.livejournal.com]

You are right. I've been watching SPN since the beginning but I only got involved in the fandom when Castiel came along

[yellowhorde.livejournal.com]

I didn't join the fandom until this November and I mostly stayed out for so long because of the Wincest. I don't read incest, regardless of fandom. It's not just a Sam/Dean thing. I don't judge people who like it, but it's not my thing. I don't bash pairings, I just avoid what I don't like. That's what warnings are for, after all. XD

[mf_luder_xf]

I don't judge people who like it, but it's not my thing. I don't bash pairings, I just avoid what I don't like. That's what warnings are for, after all.

Haha! That's all *I* ask for, anyway. :-D

But now, I'm curious. Had you been watching the show the whole time? Was it Castiel who made you join fandom? Or did you just pick it up when you began to "hear" about Castiel or Dean/Cas on your flist...?

[yellowhorde.livejournal.com]

I didn't find out about the show until mid-second season. It sounded interesting so I rented the first season via Netflix. I was instantly hooked.

I loved Castiel from the get-go. And I enjoyed his interactions with Dean. But I didn't actively ship them until after the infamous "I did it, all of it, for you" quote. Then I fell hard and started looking for communities of like minded fans. So, yes, Castiel made me join fandom. Also, Misha Collins is just that handsome. Fits my type almost to a T. XD

Man, I wish I would have heard about Dean/Cas through my flist. I could have jumped on the bandwagon sooner.

[autumndandelion.livejournal.com]

I'm not far enough along in Supernatural to even know about Castiel yet. I'm not a fan of Wincest though. So I'll have to get back to you about Dean/Cas when I'm caught up on SPN.

[mf_luder_xf]

Do! I'd love to know what you think. I love them together. But Castiel/Misha is just a BAMF in general.

[autumndandelion.livejournal.com]

Supernatural is awesome! I can't wait to get all caught up and to be able to squee with other fans. I can't join any of the groups yet here on LJ or read the fanfic, or I'll get spoiled on what will happen.

[dametokillfor.livejournal.com]

Found this through kaylbunny's journal.

I'm a Dean/Cas fan and I personally don't like Wincest.
It's not anything against Sam or what have you, I just get slightly squicked out by incest.
My little sister's my closest friend, I see a lot of us in Dean and Sam, the idea of it being seen as something else is just wrong to me.
But each to their own in the end, I'm not an active Wincest hater, I just don't read it myself.

I actually watched all four seasons in the space of two weeks last year, so really I was so saturated with the show that I wasn't even looking for pairings within it at that point.
Then Cas came along and his chemistry with Dean was just so intense and so sudden that I couldn't help myself shipping them.
Through fear of spoilers though, I didn't read any fic until I was all caught up.

I don't usually get too involved in FPS, I'm more an RPS shipper.
But Dean/Cas has totally opened a gate for me, now I can't stop.
However it has also ruined my RPS shipping with it's 'rapidly becoming the text' subtext.
(You know you have a problem when a pairing in which one person has said "God, I love that horsecock!" about the other in an interview doesn't seem 'slashy' enough anymore.)

Although if I'm honest, I'm totally shipping Cas/Crowley at the moment too.

[mf_luder_xf]

And that definitely makes sense. As I expressed to someone else, when you've had or had a similar relationship/situation, it makes sense that it would squick you more. I, personally, am someone able to distance myself from it a bit more. So, while I would never have sex with a professor because of ethics and my own issues, I love fics/movies that do involve that. I realize that's less extreme of an example, but the theory still holds (it could also be underage issues, etc, etc).

Haha, I totally know what you mean! I sort of stopped reading RPS (I was never a huge fan in the first place, although I did write some) and then the new Trek came along and Zachary Quinto and Chris Pine not only had great chemistry onscreen but they have the slashiest interviews EVER and now I look back at J2 ones and am I like. Psssht, they got nothing on Quinto and Pine!lol

I did love Crowley! Although that comes of just having read Good Omens (Dean=Crowley, Cas=Aziraphale, WUT) and that I love Mark Sheppard. I wish we could see more of him. I'd love him to make like Gabriel and be the reluctant aider of good.

[emerald-embers.livejournal.com]

I was a thorough Wincester and read a lot of fic for them - still do read Wincest once in a while if I can find anything good - up until pretty much the instant Castiel showed up. I have an enormous angel kink to start off with, but the fact that Dean finally had an option outside his codependent relationship with Sam also sold me enormously on the idea. Plus there's also the fact I find I can write Dean/Castiel (or for crack, Sam/Castiel) very easily compared with Wincest, which I loved to read but always struggled to write.

Oh, n.b., in this case I mean exclusively Dean/Sam for Wincest. Papa Winchester never did anything for me in fic ;).

[mf_luder_xf]

Yeah, I figure most people refer to the brotherly incest when referring to Wincest. And yeah, I've liked character fics with John, and even sometimes including a OFC after Mary, but never as a sex object. Which is weird, because, out of the three? In looks, JDM is much more type.lol

Yes, an angel kink would help! I have a big thing for wings. Reading about an angel having sex was squicky for maybe the first two fics I read and then I quickly got over that. Wings and the power and then add Misha's awesomeness to that and WOW. I was a total sucker for Castiel.

I read your manifesto earlier, actually, and I agree with so much of it. That (combined with some comments I saw on a fic I read last night) was partly what prompted this.

And it does help to when you feel you are able to write them! I'm a HUGE conissouer of SGA fics, but have written relatively few of them because Sheppard's lack of emotions and Rodney's snappy comebacks allude me often. But I started writing an SGU fic after like 5 eps because I find them easier to express. it's not even that i relate to them any better, but they're easier for me to write. That is certainly a huge part of being in fandom and definitely of pairings.

[scarletfbl.livejournal.com]

I chose Jared/Jensen. I also love Dean/OMC. I wish people wrote that pairing more than they do. T_T

[mf_luder_xf]

Now are you one of the J2 people because of the Wincest? It's been awhile, but that does seem to be how the RPS in this fandom got started. people who thought Sam and Dean were hot but couldn't get over the incest factor so, hey! They switched to the actors.

Or are you just a more RPS person in general?

I do love me some good Dean/OMF/OFC both on it's own, or as the past or even present within a pairing fic. It ads depth. While Dean has lessened up on his Kirking these past two season on screen, we know it's something that's always going through his mind (hello, he wants the angel to get laid, lol).

[scarletfbl.livejournal.com]

I actually got into J² because... well, I've always been an RPS kind of person. I find RPS to be more freeing. I didn't even consider Wincest until I got into the J² scene. Wincest blipped on my radar, but I still haven't gotten into it. Yeah, I'm more of an rps person.

[qwertypoiuq.livejournal.com]

Popped over here from one of my flisters - what an intriguing poll! I was a hardcore wincester, didn't ever really do the het or gen unless they were by authors I loved (and even then, I think I only read het with Jessica or Layla). Castiel's arrival gave me almost a crisis of conscience at first, because I'd been so heavily OTP over Sam/Dean that it felt like a betrayal to acknowledge just how perfect Dean/Castiel were.

Buuuut, pretty soon I was just thoroughly brainwashed by the hot angel! I attribute part of it to what a complete douche Sam was throughout most of s4 (and yes, I'm showing my Deangirl colors here, and I know Samgirls and bi-bro girls can justify it as easily as I can judge it) but the way Sam treated Dean while he was turning darkside probably pushed me even more firmly into the Dean/Castiel camp.

Because Cas is pretty much the opposite of Sam, and can love Dean unconditionally without demands and without Dean needing to grovel or make himself vulnerable just for Sam to throw it back in his face (I was watching Shadow earlier tonight, so that part of the Sam/Dean dynamic is very stark right now), it just seems like a healthier, more equal relationship, with Cas having seen Dean at his absolute lowest and weakest, in Hell, FFS, and still considering him worthy and righteous and admirable. I think that's utterly beautiful, and it'll do wonders for his shattered self-esteem, unlike Sam's constant pronouncements of Dean's weakness last season. :/

So yes, DEAN/CAS FOREVER. Apologies for coming in and blathering, I just love them sooooo.

[warpedminded.livejournal.com]

I do all m/m, or m/m/m pairings, and f/f pairings. I didn't start watching until Castiel showed up, and now my OTP is Dean/Castiel, but I also read Wincest. Anything goes really, except Jeff, and I don't know why. I think he's a handsome man, but I just feel weird and uncomfortable reading anything with him in a pairing.

I don't know why some Dean/Cas lovers think the Wincest lovers hate D/C, because that isn't always true.

[mf_luder_xf]

Well, as I noted, I know that the statement 'No Wincest reader also likes Dean/Cas' is false. I even mentioned I myself am an exception, so yes, I know it isn't always true. However, it was a trend I noticed heavily within fandom at that time. As my own results show, most had no pairing until Cas showed up - like you - but that the second most common response was that their favorite pairing before D/C had been Wincest.

However, some Wincest fans DO hate D/Cers, thus, it's logical for some D/Cers to think some Wincest fans hate D/Cers...because it's true. Obviously acknowledging it's not every single Wincest fan (nor that every D/Cer hates Wincest).