Damned if you do, damned if you don't

[mf_luder_xf]

You know, I don't think I will ever understand the sheer hate that lies in the fandoms of Stargate: Atlantis and Supernatural. I mean, both shows have served their purpose. While there are certainly some writing issues, that happens in every show. But people become so defensive of their characters and it's like, I realize I'm heavily involved too, but IT'S JUST A TV SHOW. And if you really dislike it that much, STOP WATCHING. It's not worth your time and stress, you know?


I have never hated a character I wasn't supposed to (and frankly, that one and only role is Diana Fowley, stupid bitch). I may have extreme dislike (the twins on Heroes), but I don't hate. And I don't understand the need to shove my hate off on others same as i don't get shoving my OTP off on others. I've always been ok with het and slash and kinks and the like. if I'm not interested, I won't read it. But I don't feel the need to rage at someone because their tastes don't line up with mine or blame writers/actors for something I don't particularly like on my show. TV writing is a process of bargaining, much like government. We don't all like the laws passed, but they came out of several people's creations and time and effort. There are as many anti-gun people as pro-gun people. We can't make everyone happy. And quite frankly, I see more people up in arms (heh) about TV show characters than about the things that matter like the ability of criminal offenders to not have to go through background checks. At each stage, multiple people want to see something different from a show. Just watch the movie "The TV Set" with David Duchovny. Prime example of how TV is made. Read Joe Mallozzi's blog. The man is not out to get Sam/Jack shippers or McSheppers or out to kill off Atlantis. He may be a producer, but he still has to deal with the networks and larger forces. He didn't single-handedly cancel Atlantis out of spite. He would have been being double-paid if SGA and SGU were on.

Sometimes, there are legitimate reasons for disliking a show's progression. I gotta admit, the Stargate universe doesn't tend to put people of different colors in the best roles. Teyla and Ronon were underused, Teal'c was an alien, etc, etc. But I don't believe all the main deciders on the production staffs are racist. Not every character on Supernatural gets in the way of the brothers. They enhance their relationship. Two people don't operate in isolation. There will be people, supernatural things trying to manipulate them. How they deal with it is part of what makes the show good. Us vs Them doesn't mean Us and only Us. So for all you Ruby haters, congrats, you outguessed the rest of us. But Jo never did anything to you. She's not evil, she wasn't trying to break up the brothers.

Until recently, I was always in the Wincest camp. And while I can understand not liking Wincest, all you have to do is not read it. Now that I'm reading Dean/Cas, I'm suddenly getting even more of that ("this story is so good I can't believe I read it, there's *Wincest* in it!), and then I'm getting all the Dean/Cas hate from Wincesters. No compatibility, really? And why do we all have to hate one another's ships. GIVE IT A REST. We all talk about toleration and being acceptable of differences; we can't be a bit ship-flexible?

I never understood how there could be so much love and hate for McKay, either. How can you hate a main character of a show and still watch it? People who were so down on any McKay eps made no sense to me. His flaws were what made him interesting. Same with Sheppard, same with Weir, and so on. No one on that show was perfect and that's OK.

I'm not saying don't harsh on my squee. Be critical! Don't handwave over everything. but don't hate on me and my pairing or anyone else's. The great thing about fandom is that you can ignore something. There doesn't need to be confrontation. But no one character is useless (except the twins in Heroes, lol); they all have some purpose to the plot line. whether you like that purpose or not is another matter.

My point is, like, don't like who you will. But maybe, if you really hate someone so much, you should stop watching. Or maybe you should take off your hate-goggles and just try to enjoy the show. I mean, I by no means love all the characters at the same time. I've been very upset with Dean until the end of 5x5. I'm still somewhat annoyed at Cas. Sheppard was never forgiven by me for never forgiving McKay of his actions on Duranda. But that doesn't mean I hate the characters. We're dealing with human beings and "the real world". It's not perfect and it certainly can't satisfy everyone.

I've just never seen so much hate in any fandom except these two. I mean, even the Scully hate isn't as extreme (ok, Doggett/Reyes hate comes closer but still no dice), and somehow Heroes manages to be pretty friendly even when the writers ARE fucking it up so bad.

Sometimes, I find myself too middle of the road for this life.

(And in case you're wondering, this isn't directed at any one person/post/whatever. These things bubble up from time to time and I'm sort of annoyed with all the SGU hate right now as well as the Ruby and Castiel hate.)

Comments

[siberian-skys.livejournal.com]

I don't get the SGU hate. Am I missing something? I'm not in the fandom so catch me up. My best guess is that fandom is pissed that there's now a spinoff instead of another season of Atlantis? I can't even decide if I like the show yet. I'm really ambivolent. I'm kind of interested and kind of bored at the same time, much like my ambivolence over Fastforward.

I like Sam/Dean and Dean/Cas. I don't know why these things are supposedly mutially exclusive or something. Can't we just have Sam/Dean/Cas and call it a day. :-)

And then there's Ruby. You know that's the one I truly, truly hate, right up there with DF. What you may not know is that I was preparing myself for Kripke going the other way. I was releaved when that didn't happen, but I think I was at least half expecting this. As for Jo, I started out not exactly hating her, but not thrilled with her either. I warmed up to her later--the episode where Sam's possessed; she was great in that. If they wanted her to be more than annoying in those early episodes they should have tried either pairing her with Sam or making her the kid sister from early on. She was just way too young for Dean and it looked really odd on screen. It was never a, oh she's coming between them thing, it was this chemistry is for shit thing.

[autumndandelion.livejournal.com]

I think it's the fact that Stargate fans got screwed over by supporting the direct-to-DVD SG-1 movies. Those movies sold very well. So they cancelled Atlantis and announced direct-to-DVD movies not too long after we'd lost SG-1. For me, it's not about hating SGU. It's about being fed up with the franchise as a whole. I just don't want to get into the show, because I'm worried TPTB will also cancel it before its time and go the direct-to-DVD route to make a quick buck. That's why I'm not even giving it a chance. Unfortunately, I feel burnt by the franchise, which is why I've stopped watching Stargate entirely, even old episodes of SG-1 and Atlantis.

I don't understand trashing the show to people who very obviously like it or giving people a hard time about what part of the show they like and who their favourite characters are. To go to a producer's blog and harrass him is going too far.

[mf_luder_xf]

See, now that's interesting! I'd never even thought about it. But it does make sense. Why do, in a sense, free TV with all the costs, when you can do shorter and less movies and pull in more money?

To go to a producer's blog and harrass him is going too far.

I agree. Especially when he's nice enough to even hold one and respond to comments.

And I can understand the weariness with the network/franchise. Something like that makes sense. But you don't hate SGU in general. And on top of that, you're not watching it. So while I might tell you to give it a chance, I can certainly understand your hesitancy. But the main thing is, you're not bashing me (or anyone else) for liking it. And that's just what I will never understand.

[mf_luder_xf]

Fucking LJ, ate my damn post...

Most of the hate comes from the fact that they think SGA was cancelled just for SGU. They ignore all the other factors like scripts were already pitched for a S6, that one's budget doesn't affect the other, etc.

I find myself bored for a few moments of each ep, but I also like it better each episode. I'm already invested in several of the characters. And I'm a whore for sci-fi, I'd probably watch it anyway.

I don't get why they're mutually exclusive, either. you can do so much. Threesomes (I read one last night even), Sam moving on, Dean refusing to "sully" his brother anymore, Dean falling in actual love for Cas rather than sibling love, and so forth. But as I said, people are really defensive.

You're right, the chemistry was sort of off for Dean and Jo. but it made sense, too. I mean, she was college-age and I like older men. And Dean hits on everything (he made lines referring to 2 18 year old cheerleaders in the school ep). I liked her right away and thought it played well. But yes, it was odd much the same way I really disliked Matt and Daphne (Heroes) onscreen. Like, Matt's intentions were cute, but she looked 15 and is tiny, he's in his mid 30's and a tall, large man. It was the weirdest pairing ever.

[fledmusic.livejournal.com]

I'm not "ship flexible" in the sense that I'll read everything. In regards to SPN, I don't read Sam/Dean (before it was because it just wasn't my thing, and now because I'm getting all schmoopy~ about Dean/Castiel lol). Same with SGA, I only ever read John/Rodney, because...well, that was my OTP, and that's what I wanted to read. But THAT'S WHAT I'M INTERESTED IN AND OTHER PEOPLE ARE INTERESTED IN OTHER THINGS, AND SHOCKINGLY, WE CAN ALL READ WHAT WE WANT!!!

I was out of SPN fandom for a loooong time, and when I came back after catching up on season 4, I was like, "oooh boy, here we go." Because back in season 2 it was Jo everybody was hating on, and then it was Ruby (and Anna, honestly, what did she ever do to anyone except have sex with Dean? ...oh, that's right, HOW DARE SHE). And I really liked Ruby, but even if I didn't, I'm sure I would have just been indifferent to her at worst, because like you said, what is the point of focusing all your energy on HATING something on a show you watch? Focus on what you do like, or, like you also said, if you really are feeling this much anger watching a show, maybe you shouldn't watch it anymore! It's supposed to be fun!

Us vs Them doesn't mean Us and only Us. Exaaaaactly. I think this more than anything is what bugs me. Sam and Dean caring about other people (or angels? haha) and other people doing the same is NOT A BAD THING. They could use some more love!

[mf_luder_xf]

Well, right. I certainly don't expect every person to read every pairing. I wouldn't read Dean/Cassie because her character bugged me. Probably wouldn't read McKay/Zelenka unless it were embedded in a really good story (but if its a good story, they make the pairing believable and then I'm on board, lol). And I get when people don't like incest. But that doesn't give them a right to bash people who do like it. I understand incest is the more morally grey area than even slash. I don't approve of it in real life, but I also figure, who am I to judge if it's consensual and whatnot. And in our case, RL isn't pertinent. It's all fiction.

I stopped reading SPN fic for a long time because I was caught up by Heroes and SGA, but I've always been in the fandom aspect. And the hate for Anna really surprises me! Ruby, I can almost understand because she was bad. But Anna didn't do anything. Except the sex. People just really hate all girls on SPN (unless they act like the boys mothers).

Sam and Dean caring about other people (or angels? haha) and other people doing the same is NOT A BAD THING. They could use some more love!

I agree! I just don't get the bubble they want to put around them, but then they still want to see them living lives.

[autumndandelion.livejournal.com]

Diana Fowley never got on my nerves. I like how she made Scully more fiery and fight for her man. Hehe! And Doggett took some getting used to, but I really liked him. I appreciated how Scully had become a believer by that point and Doggett came in as the skeptic, but his skepticism took on a different form than Scully's. She had a scientific perspective while he thought like a cop. I preferred Mulder and Scully as a team, but I accepted Doggett. Reyes, I just didn't like. She came off as flaky to me. But that's not the reason why I didn't watch season ten; it's because Scully is my favourite character, and to me, it just wasn't X-Files without her. Good freaking night do I miss that show!

[mahoni.livejournal.com]

But maybe, if you really hate someone so much, you should stop watching. Or maybe you should take off your hate-goggles and just try to enjoy the show.

I've gone both ways. I started to get fed up with Supernatural in ~season 2, because I don't really care all that much about Dean, and all of the Sam-hate from Dean fans on the internets got me to the point where I haaaaaated Dean. So I stopped watching. I tried watching again in season 3, and staying away from SPN fandom got me back to not hating on Dean, but then other things about the show started irritating me. So I just kinda gave up and stopped watching.

The thing I didnt' do was spend hours and hours raging about how the showrunners are big assholes for not writing the show I want to watch. They're not on my payroll, you know? Seriously, I don't get that fan POV.

R.e. SGA, I've never liked McKay all that much. My favorite McKay scenes are the ones where he's with Teyla. I wasn't a McKay/Teyla shipper, I just really loved their dynamic and always wanted more of it. Whereas the Sheppard and McKay dynamic didn't do much for me, and McKay by himself was just annoying. I solved that particular problem by getting over it for teamy eps, and skipping McKay-centric or McKay&Sheppard-centric eps, and I was a very happy little SGA fan.

(Well, until the final season, when I got so bummed that the show was going off the air that I stopped watching. Am planning to ask for s5 on DVD for Christmas, though, because am over the woe and now I'm dying to watch the eps I missed.)

As far as SGU, I am one of those SGA (and SG1) fans who is not watching it, but not because I'm pissed off. I wasn't impressed with the way SGU was pitched in comparison to SGA -- they emphasized things that really did make it sound like 90210 in space, which, yeesh, I don't like 90210 on Earth, I definitely don't want to watch it in space. But I figured I'd wait and see once it got on the air.

But since then I've seen commercials -- in which there are (mostly white, argh) dudes running around doing exciting things and gorgeous women...bathing in ponds. Naked. Whut? Also, I'm hearing that it's trying to be like BSG, and I did not like BSG (so depressing omg; adventures in outer space are supposed to be FUN, not depressing. Wah). So. That's why I've decided to skip SGU.

(Admittedly, I'm just not watching a lot of TV in general. I think I might have gotten curious enough about SGU, since I *am* a fan of the Stargate 'verse, to watch it, if I was in more of a TV mood.)

And I do get being upset that one show was essentially shelved to make way for another show, but on the other hand, are these angry fans new to television? Is this the first show they've ever watched? Because, um, shows end. They get canceled and go off the air. The reasons may be different in each case, but the common theme is: they end. (Unless they are Law & Order or Doctor Who, and then they go on for eleventy billion years.) I get being bummed about a show ending, but being pissed off? I don't get that.

[mf_luder_xf]

Awesome! Thanks for letting me know. Friended!

[ravensilverwing.livejournal.com]

I think you're the first person I've come across to be so eloquent about a subject I just can't fathom. I too love my TV shows. They're full of pretty and fun and interesting things that take me away from the everyday. But in the end they're just a TV show.

I adore both Wincest and Castiel/Dean but somehow that's not allowed, honestly WTF?

I just can't wrap my head around the level of hate out there.

Next time I'm incoherent trying to explain my shock and sometimes frustration I think I'll just point someone towards your post. You've put it so much better than I ever could.

It's nice to know I'm not alone!